Founded On Purpose

Kt McBratney: [00:00:00] Welcome to Founded on Purpose, the show where we get to know the people working to align business and impact, profit, and purpose. I'm your host, Kt McBratney. So each episode, we welcome a different guest to answer the same set of questions, all designed to open up intimate, authentic conversation about the topics that matter most to them.

And today I'm joined by someone committed to making mental health a business priority for founders everywhere. Jason Cavnar is the Executive Director of the Founder Mental Health Pledge. He's also an entrepreneur, investor, and advisor to philanthropic and cultural leaders on impact and has a passion for human flourishing, which I'm excited to dig into a bit more.

Jason, welcome to the show.

Jason Cavnar: Thanks for having me, Kt. Great to be here.

Kt McBratney: Well, we're going to just dig in with question one. It's the best place to start, I think, and I've been, like, waiting all week. I've been, like, so excited to hear your answer on this one. In one word? What's your purpose?

Jason Cavnar: Consciousness.

Kt McBratney: Okay. Say more. What do you mean? [00:01:00]

Jason Cavnar: So I think of consciousness as like love, but like really just to elevate consciousness in my own life and then bring that to as many people as I can.

Kt McBratney: What's been the journey with that? Like has it always been a known or a conscious purpose for you or is it something that has kind of progressed through your tenure in this, I will say, um, semi chaotic industry?

What's that journey been like?

Jason Cavnar: Yeah, I really wasn't conscious by any stretch. I mean, I think that for years I was working, and I think a lot of founders and people who are driven can relate to this. I was working kind of with blinders on with like very specific ambitions and goals that were very externally motivated.

Uh, I mean, I've always been like a deeply spiritual person. I've always, you know, in my private life sought, you know, what is, what does love look like? What is, what is conscious look like? But, uh, in my professional life, a very disconnected, very, very divorced concepts. And so, I never really saw it as my purpose in the world to, to do the [00:02:00] work that I'm doing now.

It was, it was kind of way led to way. And so building a company really, the company that we built years ago, Singley was aimed at trying to elevate consciousness in a different way, like through technological infrastructure, but not, uh, not at the level of human hearts. And I found myself over time.

Getting more and more interested in sort of the individual experience and how each person flourishes, reaches their potential, lives fully alive, however we want to frame that. That really kind of came into view for me in the last couple years.

Kt McBratney: That phrase, the, the human heart, how often, like what that struck in me is how often that gets separated from the day to day of what we do when we work in tech, right?

It's so easy to think of people as users, as numbers on a spreadsheet. Um, to think about building for outcomes and not for people. How has that kind of journey, how have those concepts of, of building for like human hearts and human potential and, [00:03:00] and alignment and love? How has that come together in the day to day, knowing that you've, your journey has spanned and of course everybody can Google you, they can go to LinkedIn and get the deets.

You've bridged both the for profit and the non profit space. And I think a lot of times there's this. assumption that the human and the heart element can only exist on the not for profit side and not the pro, you know, the for profit business side. So like, I don't know, where does, where does, what does that look like for you now?

Jason Cavnar: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I guess I would go back and say, I feel like we're in a moment where more and more people are awakening and just generally into conscious living, well being, different conversations. Uh, you know, certainly my experience in, in Silicon Valley, like late 2009, early 2010, that, that timeframe was when like the mobile apps were on the rise and everybody was kind of like fascinated with the emergence of unicorns and quick growth [00:04:00] and like the whole ecosystem really shifted.

There were only a handful of seed funds, but in general, I found it to be very, you know, very strategic, very, very technological. Uh, very ungrounded. And I don't mean that in a diminutive way, like very aspirational, but also not necessarily connected to impact to, to humanity. I think there's been an emergence in the social sector over the last decade, which has been really special, but even in the nonprofit space, when you mentioned I bridge, like I went over to the nonprofit space and I found that so many people.

In that world too, they come out of academia. They've really been trained in mind paradigms and not certainly arts and bodies. And I think that the impact sector itself also misses the boat 99 percent of the time on human hearts, human minds, human impact, um, angles, they tend to think about things as systems rather than individuals that form collective.

And so, you know, in, in, in sort of my day to day now, I think about investing in companies that are as a. [00:05:00] Byproduct of what they do, they're raising human vitality or they're raising awareness and consciousness. So try to focus on that with, with the investments that we make, with the advising that I do, and also with the team that we're building, and that's through Vitality Labs at founder mental health pledge, really, I think the opportunity is to drive a conversation for founders around, you know, mental health is this paradigm that we talk about, like break fix.

We tend to think about it again, like through the mind, but really like we're a whole human system. Um, And really like we're a system that we should learn and train. And from my perspective, like founders are elite athletes, they're elite performers, and they should view their body and view the way they construct their life very similarly to the analogs and other industries.

And yet we're not there yet in the tech sector. And so like, that's what I'm hoping to drive. And when you start really digging into peak performance, you start getting into consciousness, you start getting into like, are you aware? Can you view yourself through? An objective observer and kind of train yourself and relate to yourself more consciously.

So that's [00:06:00] sort of the future I see.

Kt McBratney: Why do you think it is that like in an industry like tech where we're so future oriented, right? We're so aspirational and that to your point is a beautiful aspect of this. Why are we late to the game on recognizing that we are whole humans that are like not just the brain, not just the body.

Like why haven't we gotten it yet?

Jason Cavnar: I think there's a few dynamics. I think about capital, I mean, the venture paradigm of a hundred X lends itself to software. So like human problems, human solutions, things that require human glue are just inherently less scalable. Or if they're scalable, they take a time scale of 20, you know, 15, 20 years, as opposed to five to 10.

And like, that really changes the ROI profile of investments. And so. You know, a large amount of the capital floating around the innovation ecosystem is coming through alternative assets and very focused on, uh, a specific portfolio theory, right? 10 year [00:07:00] funds, you know, 10 X returns. One cover is the 20 that don't work.

Things like that. I think that's like one reason. And I don't think that's a consciousness issue. I think that's like just the game that we're playing issue, right? I think that there's alternative fund structures that are coming online. I'm seeing more VCs and even founders in particular. Yeah. Put aside the idea of that paradigm and say like, no, we're building real things, real businesses, real people.

And so that's cool. Um, I think also, you know, software ran out and sort of colonized a lot of different industries, but it's getting to the harder industries, like the real human industries now and the real innovation industries. And so I think we'll see in the next decade, meaningful investment. It might not look through, might not be through traditional venture funds.

We'll see, but things that are more aimed at consciousness wellbeing, sort of elevating the human spirit. Um, you know, I think another interesting thing, I have the, the privilege of, of working with the Fetzer Institute out of, out of, uh, Michigan, but they really talk about the [00:08:00] intersection of science and spirituality.

I think like in general, as a society, we, we, we work, we found ourselves in a very Newtonian paradigm, a very, the enlightened paradigm was very sort of material in its nature. And we kind of left behind the spiritual side. Which really is what I would call the quantum side. And I think we're, all this science is on the edges of, of kind of like where whatever we want to define as something bigger than ourselves, consciousness, spirituality, whatever that might be, it's also scientifically being proven.

And so like that stuff's going to start merging its way back into, as quantum computing comes online, as sort of, we get into new levels of science, as we start using AI in the biological space, we're going to find all kinds of, uh, Opportunities that I think get to the human and sort of the, the well being of humans.

Kt McBratney: Oh, I'm like, we could just dig into what you just said and like have an entire episode or entire season dedicated to that. But I think this next question is going to pull on some of those threads a bit more. [00:09:00] What do you think, or what do you believe, strongly, whole chest, whole body, is the single biggest missed opportunity in your field?

And you can define your field however, right? You're at the intersection of lots of places, so. Be as generous or as specific as you want with defining field.

Jason Cavnar: So when I think of field, my, because of my lived experience, it be moving between innovation, social change, trying to affect kind of human hearts and minds.

Like the thing that I think is the deepest miss currently is people who are capital allocators on the philanthropic side. So high net worth individuals who have their own foundations, their own family offices, Their own, um, donor advised funds and various, various other instruments to move capital that doesn't need to seek market rate returns, putting their money into business as usual programs, as opposed to innovations.

And so [00:10:00] if we can get the capital that lives in those pools, moving into innovations, not seeking the same market rate returns that we see in the venture ecosystem, but actually enabling founders to build real businesses, focus on real people. I think we'll see transformation change. And so I, I hope that in the next decade we see a new blend and I, I think impact funds have done a, an okay job of moving this, but a lot of people have defaulted to old models that on the, on the edges, I think we're going to see more money move into capital allocators that are very specifically thinking like venture investors, but using capital that doesn't need the same return profile.

And that's critical in the seed stage in the series, you know, from, from zero to series a, you know, product market fit. That's where I think a lot of the dilution and loss of control and loss of mission and loss of impact takes place actually. And so if we can get founders from zero to product market fit and then use our scale capital and the venture ecosystem to [00:11:00] take that out, that's when I think we're going to see new paradigms.

Kt McBratney: I could not agree more. Like it's, that's so in line with the philosophy and the structures and everything that drives us at Renew VC is this opportunity that like, This, this concept, it's like we ask founders to be innovative. We ask that of the world, but how are we innovating on our own models, right?

We know that running the same game plan, running the same playbook gets a certain outcome, but we want a different outcome, but we're not changing how we're like the structures and how we're actually, how we're actually not just allocating capital, right? There's an entire discussion to be said about like who and how capital gets allocated, but even structurally, like structurally looking at.

the mindset and how we're looking at different asset classes and the different performance and the different timespans and the different outcomes. Like, what do we, what do we mean by the return [00:12:00] that's needed for this? Right. And thinking about it, it's not just philanthropic and quote unquote, giving it away and feeling good about it and getting a tax base break, and it's not just this invest in VC that will almost.

Entirely go to software and follow the power law, which is an observation and it works in some contexts, but like you've already said, not in everything. So like, how are we actually being innovated? How are we being conscious? How are we thinking and building with love to create new opportunities? Because we know that there's a need for them.

There's like, that's like an indisputable fact. Like, I'm like, we could just do like a whole series of links in the show notes and be like, here, don't argue with us. Well, with that said, thinking about all the different places in which you're moving to, I would say, heal that missed opportunity. What's been your most recent win?

Jason Cavnar: Well, I'm just now entering the mental health for founders space. But one of the things that has been really exciting, kind of building on [00:13:00] what you were just talking about, I was in New York two weeks ago, and I met with a whole ecosystem of capital allocators, uh, I would call them nouveau VCs, people who are focused on the new way of being a VC, uh, all focused on sort of mental health and human vitality.

And that was incredibly interesting conversation. I can't call it a win, but it actually felt more like. Validation that this is a movement that's on the cusp of, of opening up. Uh, I think the other thing related to that is there was, um, one of the guys I worked with there was a guy named Jack Kreinler and he he's got a company called well founded, but they're working with VCs to do, you know, high performance training programs with founders and going back to kind of what you're saying, Kt, I think another innovation that's going to need to take place is the way the role that VCs play, uh, and how they show up and who they show up as, and I think we've traditionally had this sort of like.

Um, almost parental paradigm of, I'm going to give you some capital. You're going to do a good job. You're going to be a good [00:14:00] kid. You're going to get straight A's and then like daddy will be happy or whatever. Right. Just to be super reductionist. I think like the inverse is flipped. Like we know that founders are the, the capital, you know, the value creators.

The question becomes how does VC show up in a conscious way that unlocks the full potential of that founder and the timescale that that founder has to work with, with the capital that's been given. And I, I see. Uh, you know, it's been traditionally called like social emotional skills, but I would actually say they're psychological consciousness skills that VCs are going to want to pick the 10 years and, and sort of on the near horizon, we have at the fundamental pledge, kind of the VC training program that we're going to try to bring so that VCs to understand what I just said can kind of begin to relate to their founders in a new way.

My suspicion we'll do a longevity study on this with, with probably leading colleges who focus on entrepreneurship and psychology. Is that what we'll see is like downside profile of investment start to transform because it's not necessarily the one out of 20 that break out and [00:15:00] do well that need adjustment from a financial perspective.

But I, I would argue that so many opportunities are missed by founders who don't quite unlock something for themselves, for their team. And I think investors rarely play a valuable role there. And I think that's like fertile ground for, for transforming what the other 19 could look like and see, we'll see what happens.

Kt McBratney: That's what's been really exciting to see the Founder Mental Health Pledge go from, uh, being, you know, kind of a social media call to action, a rallying cry into a formalized nonprofit and organization that is saying, how are we making progress in a measurable and sustainable way, right? Uh, calling attention to the mental health crisis, just like in the world.

And then specifically within found, within the founder community is massive and necessary. If we know the house is on fire, and that other houses are at high likelihood of catching fire, what are we [00:16:00] doing to not just, to your point, break and fix, break and fix, what are we doing to be preventative, to, to build better structures, better understanding, better skill sets, better tools, and I, it's so refreshing to hear that you all are not approaching that as, this is a problem that founders need to solve just by themselves.

I feel like that's the piece of the equation that has been missing from a lot of the conversations happening and I know that personally, like, it's funny, I was actually, we were having a partner meeting yesterday and we were talking about, like, what does mental health support, what will it look like in the future of, of our firm?

What does it look like in other places? And even just the fact that that conversation is happening in, in a organic, natural, not a force, not an agenda item way, right? Like, of course, it should be operationalized and all of that, but. This movement is starting and spreading, and it's going to take all of us.[00:17:00]

Jason Cavnar: Yeah, yeah, you used this phrase that jumped out for me, like, the house is on fire. I think that one of the questions is, why is the house on fire? You know, we went through the chapter of destigmatization. I think that in our industry, like, that we, we still have work to do there, but that's largely been done.

We can at least talk about the fact that the house is on fire. And, you know, we're now at a place where, uh, let's get to root cause of why this continues to happen. And I think that gets into. Elevating awareness, this goes again, moving from the break fix model to like the proactive integration and training model.

Uh, you know, right now there's a permission structure that we need to change. A lot of founders don't feel like they have the permission, either internally or externally, or one could say those are the one and the same thing. Where they can't allocate the capital to their wellbeing. Right. And it's got to go to marketing.

It's got to go to customer. Um, I, I would, I think if we can move the industry at this point in time to the paradigm of actually you're a peak performer. And this, you know, you were just [00:18:00] given a couple million dollars in the same way that an athlete's given a contract, a celebrity is given a contract for a movie, they train their body, they train their mind, they, they, they learn how to intentionally manifest the results of high performance.

There's a whole series of things that an integrated human would be, would be doing if they treated themselves like a peak performer. Turns out those lead to performance and to better well being, and it turns out that well being and performance are inextricably linked. It's really hard to feel great about yourself when you're not performing as well as you know you're capable of.

And so, that's the moment I see us, that's sort of the work that we have to do. Uh, the founder mental health pledge, we, we reached about a thousand folks right now. So 237 venture firms and other couple hundred angels collectively, they reach 30, 000 portfolio companies. And then we've had a couple, like five, 600 founders signed the pledge at this point.

Right. But the idea is how do we take that network and begin to do what [00:19:00] I just described where we can elevate. The paradigm of performance training, we can actually permission those founders to see themselves that way and invest in themselves that way. I think that's going to move the needle a lot. And then we want to highlight people who are doing that well, experiencing the results, and then normalize that as the culture through storytelling.

So appreciate you having me on today as a chance to talk about it. And ideally we can just drive a movement in the ecosystem where that becomes the new norm and hopefully then we don't have houses on fire.

Kt McBratney: I'm down. I'm riding with you. I'm riding with you. Um, ask somebody who has signed the pledge, um, who has gone on.

And even in the de de de stigmatization era, you know, it was five years ago, it was considered, quote unquote, brave of me to be like, Hi, I'm burnt out. I'm a founder, and this is my third time being burnt out, and I need to talk about it, and I'm not going to carry shame. And to be able to be like, yeah, that's something I was known for in a, in a season of time.

And also, I don't want to be there again, and I don't want others [00:20:00] to be there again. Um, So, and I'm also huge fan of leading and change through community and through storytelling. And I think that there's for, obviously there will be so many links in the show notes for people to jump on board, sign the pledge, get involved.

Um, but really like this is a collective effort. Like let's keep the fire from spreading and let's make sure that errant sparks don't, don't light anything else up. Right. Let's it's kind of like the smoke. I feel like there needs a Smokey the Bear reference in here. Like only you can help prevent. Founder mental health crises.

Yeah. Clearly we agree on so many things, so I'm going to switch it up with the next question. When was the last time you were wrong?

Jason Cavnar: Oh gosh, this morning probably. Um, but in general, I think one of the things, um, I look back at, I've had a few experiences. This I think is related to consciousness. It's related to flourishing.

Um, but. You know, I think like all of us are constructed in very specific ways. Like we have different [00:21:00] personality traits, different things. And, um, one of the frameworks I like a lot, whether it's useful or not, is the Enneagram just to reflect back to you, like ways that you may show up on a regular basis, but I like the paradigm of integration and disintegration.

And, and when I, when you asked me that question, I think of like two times in particular, when I was like a less integrated version of myself, I'm an Enneagram 8, I challenge things. And I. You know, I specifically can, can, if I'm not in my integrated self more showing up in service, I can be very aggressive and challenging something that I think needs changing, but do it in a way that's not helpful and actually like wrongs another person.

And I've had two professional experiences where, um, you know, even in the last like couple of years where like, you know, I worked on something that was really important to me and through a disintegrated sort of expression of self, like I actually drove, Distance between me and the people I was collaborating with.

Right. And, and when I think of wrong, I don't necessarily think just [00:22:00] of like intellectual bets that I'm making where I was wrong. I tend to think more about like, where, where was the time that I could've got something right that I, that I wish I had. And so that's like what comes up for me when you ask that question.

Kt McBratney: I love that. Exploring how wrong isn't wrong and right aren't a binary, how being misaligned or disintegrated, disintegrated. Wow. I. Sorry, I never thought about the words like that together in a perfect sense. You just saw like a little lightbulb moment, um, is, is just such an interesting way to also explore that concept from a place of consciousness, really.

Jason Cavnar: Yeah, and it, it paradoxically makes wrongness less of a priority for everyone involved, right? If we see ourselves as. People who are moving towards or away from our integration, then we're less inclined to like make Kt or Jason wrong for something we're more inclined to give them a coaching moment, like, Hey, Kt, that's like not in alignment with like the best expression of you.

[00:23:00] Let's come at it differently. That's a different conversation than like, you're wrong. We're going to make you wrong. We're going to actually push you out of something. And that's, that's like,

Kt McBratney: that's an adversarial approach is you're wrong. Here's the right way. It's, it's, um, I operate. In life, in work, which means in work too, um, from a yes, and philosophy because in work, in life, whoever I'm working with, even if we're in disagreement, we're on the same team, we want the same outcome.

And so like, just being able to be like, yes, and have you thought about it this way, or yes, and Jason, I'm noticing you're showing up in a way that you seem upset, or like you're in a negative state, like, how is that maybe influencing this interaction, right? And, and really. Using that as a, as a regrounding technique and a calibration moment for everyone involved, not just the person who is quote unquote wrong.

Jason Cavnar: Yeah. We've seen a few movies literally about big Silicon Valley companies being [00:24:00] built where a wrongness was put on the founder instead of a coaching. And I get real curious about like what could have happened in those companies had the conversation been approached a little differently, a little more consciously.

Kt McBratney: Maybe a little more hurt in there and not just mind and spreadsheets.

Jason Cavnar: Yeah.

Kt McBratney: Yeah. Okay, this is all so good. I'm like, I, let's just stay and talk all day, but people have things to do. You have, you have a busy, you have a busy day, I'm sure. I'm curious, given that you operate and you think and you live and work in such a place where there is a lot of critical thinking, a lot of, um, research, a lot of what some would think of as like heavy lifting.

How do you play? We know that play is such an important part, not just for mental health, but just for perf for performance for human beings. How does play show up in your life?

Jason Cavnar: That is such a good question. I had a moment of play yesterday, I'll just indulge telling you about. So, we're in Palm Springs right now.

Uh, my partner and I, Abby, [00:25:00] we went to the Integratron. I don't know if anybody's heard of this, but it's like this phenomenal, like, sound vibration machine built in the desert. It has legendary origins, but, um, What like, I love to do experiences with like body, mind, spirit, where you, you can like reconnect with yourself.

Like that's fun for me. And like, I was just giddy yesterday doing this experience, um, a different version of play for me. I love to play golf and that's just like my, I love nature and I love the challenge and it's just something I've always done. It's almost like therapeutic and it's a source of friendship and, and everything else that I do.

But, uh, I'm, I've really been intentional Kt, honestly, in constructing work as play as much as I can. So, you know, like there's within all of our different dimensions, there's always like the chop wood, carry water. Like you gotta do product management. You gotta do task tracking and invoicing and that stuff sucks.

There's no pushing. But, um, as far as like my, [00:26:00] my definition of play, I don't think of building teams and bringing ideas into form and telling stories and like, Recruiting great people that you get to spend time with, like, that's fun for me, and it always has been fun for me since I was very little, and so, um, I've tried to build a life around the things that I love doing, and that's a different way I go at it as well.

I think the last thing would be travel. I just love being in new spaces and places, new cultures, seeing the way that people see the world differently, how they, you know, what they value, and also just like, Stepping out of context, right? Anytime you can disrupt your context. I think that's like so fun.

Kt McBratney: I feel like you're not someone who's afraid to immerse yourself in something unknown.

Jason Cavnar: No, it's, I really don't get comfortable. I'm not super comfortable staying in something known for very long, paradoxically.

Kt McBratney: I'm, I'm similar. I'm like, I get uncomfortable being comfortable, which sounds chaotic to some people. They're like, what? And I'm just like, but the, over time and the more that my professional and personal life have aligned around that, similar to [00:27:00] what you were saying.

People are like, of course, that makes sense. Like you're a builder, you create things, you connect dots. You like, of course, you don't like sitting still. Now I love ease. I love, you know, not everything has to be an uphill battle all of the time, because some of these challenges that we're facing and that we're taking on head on, you included as well.

Our big Sisyphean hills, right? We're pushing these boulders up. Of course, not everything can be that, but. I like the challenge, like I want to, again, it's this peak performer, human flourishing side of things where it's like if we're not pushing the edges, we're kind of getting stagnant. And that looks different ways for different people, which I think is actually wonderful and makes for incredible teams when you have different risk tolerances and experiences and perspectives, right?

That's what really creates such a rich fabric. Okay, we're coming close to the end already. And I'm sad about it, but I'm grateful.

Jason Cavnar: I love your sad face.

Kt McBratney: I know. I'm like, I'm so sad, but I'm grateful [00:28:00] that we've gotten to this point. To close it out with the final question, what is the most challenging part of your job or the part that is your least favorite and what is just like the best thing about what you do?

Jason Cavnar: Yeah. Well, the least favorite thing for me is the very specific blocking and tackling and nuances. I love getting on a call and promising I'm going to do three things. And then I hate moving that into a Trello board or whatever it ends up being. I always switch project. I always blame the project management system instead of myself.

Right. So I moved those over there and, and it's just truly like the blocking and tackling and, and it's like at an energetic level that's so, um, different than what I, I love to do, which, and so like the thing I love the most truly is, Seeing what's possible. And then like that moment where you bring other people into it and they see it too.

And you know, that they know how to make it real even better than you. Right. I had this [00:29:00] moment yesterday. I was talking to a friend, Christina Poindexter, and she saw what I saw, but she also knows, you know, she was head of marketing at headspace and she knew like three ways to make it real and for people to talk to, and it was just, it was so enlivened, so.

Um, that's probably my favorite thing. And then when the other thing is that, um, when people come up and say that your work matters to them, that's a really, truly, it's a gift, you know? Uh, I've had some founders reach out individually and express something that I've said to them or a coaching moment or, you know, the pledge.

It doesn't even matter. It's just like, when you get that moment to know that what you're trying to pour into the world is, is mattering for somebody. I really love that too.

Kt McBratney: There's no feeling like it. It's like, that's, that's magic. I, I was, I was thinking the other day, because I get to, I get the privilege of getting to ask people about their purpose and I was asking myself, what would my purpose be today if I was going to answer this question right now in this moment?

And I [00:30:00] thought about the, the idea of magic and I was like, magic, like those are magical moments where you have that human connection. When you bring that team in to take this idea and breathe life into it even bigger than you could have imagined. Like, I like to believe those are, those are magical moments that we get to experience.

As long as, did not mean to come full circle on this, but here we are. If you're conscious, right, if you're having and practicing this consciousness to recognize it or to tend to those moments, I feel like you get more.

Jason Cavnar: Beautifully said.

Kt McBratney: Oh, okay. Where can people find you on the internet? Learn more about your work, the Founder Mental Health Pledge.

Jason Cavnar: Yeah, the founderpledge. com, so founderpledge. com, know the, just founderpledge. com is where you can find the Founder Mental Health Pledge. You can also follow us on LinkedIn there. Uh, me personally, I'm just Jason Kavnar on X on LinkedIn and on Instagram. So, uh, we'd love to connect with anybody in any of those formats for a variety of [00:31:00] reasons.

I talk about different things on each.

Kt McBratney: Awesome. Awesome folks. Take up Jason on that offer. The work you all are doing is incredible and keep an eye on the Founder Mental Health Pledge and, and the activity you're doing there. I'm so excited to see not just the results, but to see how you're involving folks in every step of the way to really make this a movement that has lasting change because we need it.

So thank you for what you do, and thanks for bringing your, your, your full consciousness to us today.

Jason Cavnar: Thank you for being you, Kt, and thanks for having me on. Such a gift.